Who Is Palin?

22 Comment(s)

1. Please no more political messages. I will not change my stance against Obama and anyone from the left that supports abortion. If they don’t hold my moral values which do happen to be driven from my being a follower of Christ then I cannot vote for them. I answer to someone much greater than any mere human. My allegience is to Him first and His will for me. He is my Lord and I have to submit to Him. Look what our trusting in any human has done for us. We have a global market crash, more killings than ever, especially of INNOCENTS. The love of ourselves, our wants and our money has replaced the love for our Creator. People should be more worried about where they will spend eternity instead of worried so much about their financial portfolio or themselves. Think about it. Where will you be if you die tomorrow. Heaven or Hell. What are you living for now? What is important to you, your brief time here on earth or eternity? We have all sinned. We all lie, steal, cheat , hold anger in our heart towards one another, blaspheme His name, etc. He is going judge all people for these sins in the end and send all not covered in the blood of Jesus to Hell. Heaven is only yours if you repent or your sins against Him and put your trust in Jesus death on the cross as payment for those sins. Submit to Him and put your trust in Him instead of the next leader of this country. No matter who wins your focus should be on Him instead. He is just waiting for you to submit. He may not wait much longer before He comes again as Judge instead of Savior. Deep down we all know we have a Creator. Please quit ignoring the truth for the love of your favorite sins and trust in Him. Then you will understand how us “religious fanatics” as some call us can be so hung up on morality. Its the most important thing.

   Kevin | Oct 11, 2008 | Reply

2. I do believe the kind of self-righteous judgment you passionately spewed onto me, or whomever, is a sin according to the teachings of the Christian faith. Being passionate about one’s religion is admirable, but has nothing to do with a government that was founded on religious freedom, and equality. I don’t believe God has appointed you to sit in judgment over every Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or any other non-christian American. According to the teachings of the bible you follow, the greatest gift God gave to mankind is FREE WILL!
   If you don’t want to read my political messages that’s totally cool. I will respect your right to choose. I usually hit reply all, if you are sent one on accident, delete it! If I have somehow offended your moral superiority remove me as a friend. Intelligent adults, friends or foes should be able to have conversations that are intellectual, and thought provoking. If you read my messages, or comments you will see that I try to stick to the political issues at hand. I do research so that my comments are factually correct, and I diligently try not to exclude anyone from a conversation by asking people to be respectful of one another. Your comment reads as though you are inciting the wrath of God upon me for fervently, provoking POLITICAL discussion.
   Don’t you think that’s a bit extreme? “We all lie, cheat, steal”…Um no WE DON’T ALL…I’m sure that like most I will lie when it comes to sparing someone’s feelings, or perhaps to protect a loved one, but I cannot think of a specific event. I have been happily married for 14+years, and pay my taxes, so I don’t believe I’ve cheated anyone. I haven’t stolen anything since the second grade, when I stole change from my parents to go to the Dairy Queen. I cannot think of a single person I am angry at, or wish ill-will. I really am not a grudge-holding woman; and finally blaspheme…well Ok you have me there, but for the love of God who doesn’t curse once in awhile! Lighten-up my friend it takes all kinds to make this beautiful world go round. Perhaps you are one kind, and I am another:-) Don’t hate me because I’m prone to political rantings that show my intellectual superiority over others, or because I overindulge in wrapping myself in a warm, snugly blanket of sarcasm. I’m just a girl that’s been cursed w/ adorable charm, beauty, and an over abundance of humility.

   Polimom69 | Oct 11, 2008 | Reply

3. Self rightous judgement? I am only warning others. I am not sitting as a judge. I am only expressing what the Bible says. What God says to all of us through His word. Anyone who does not believe and follow Christ does not make it to Heaven. Those weren’t my words, their God’s words. Jesus said in John 14:6 “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me”. That means He is the only way to Heaven. Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and even Jewish people all all going to Hell without putting their trust in Him. Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims along with all the other false religions out there are following false gods and ultimately lies from Satan. The Jewish people believe in the true God of the Bible but reject their Messiah Jesus Christ and are ultimately doomed to Hell without trusting Him. He is God in the flesh and the only way. That is not from my mind. That is directly from the Bible. Yes God did give us free will. The free will to reject Him and live how we want to live but living our own will means rejecting His ultimate gift, Christ’s death on the cross. That is His ultimate Gift to us. A gift that we did not deserve. It is an insult to Him when you ignore that Gift that will save you and continue to live by your own “free will”. You are spitting in His face when you reject the salvation and dooming yourself to an eternity in Hell. That free will that you say we all have is still under His sovernty. He still utlimately allows you to do what you wish up to a point. At any given time He will choose to take you out of this world. He will say enough is enough. Enough chances for your accepting the Gift. Then you are done. Once you are dead there isn’t any chance to accept the Gift and to repent for the years of rejecting Him.
   I did not say I never sinned myself. I myself have been guilty of sins. Am I being extreme? Not at all. The Bible says we are sinners. We all know it. Your concience tells you when you are doing wrong. I am just trying to wake up those that refuse to admit it and listen to their concience. I don’t want to see anyone lost to Hell. I am just stating what I feel I need to state and the political message that mentioned morality and religion in people’s decision making was a perfect place to bring it in. While you are passionate with politics I have an even deeper passion for my Savior and I must speak out. You stated em “WE DON”T ALL” in regards to sins. I think you are glossing over that area. The Bible says that we are all sinners. Those weren’t my words. You sin when you don’t put God first. You sin when you create a false image of God that suits you and doesn’t match up to the true God of the Bible. A all faith accepting God is a false God. Just one lie in your life is a lie. A lie is a lie. Just like stealing is stealing. Have you ever not done what your parents wanted you to do. Thats dishonoring them and another sin. Have you ever looked with lust at another person whom you weren’t married to? Thats adultery in God’s eys. So is sex outside of marriage. Blaspheme is not swearing. Its using God’s name as a cuss word. Its saying His name as an expression of anger, disgust, etc. like the popular OMG. He hates when His name is dragged through the mud. Have you ever had anger for someone. That is murder of the heart in God’s eys and a sin. We all are guilty of at least one of these and the rest of the ten commandments. Only believing in Christ and His death on the cross for those sins wipes them off your slate in God’s eyes. That is the Ultimate Gift. Plain and simple. You can deny it all you want and call me judgemental or a religous nut all you want. Its not about a religion, its about a relationship with Him. I am not angry with you or anyone else. I am only anxious to see others on the right path and I only want to do what pleases Him. It is not up to me to change anyone. Its up to God sending the Holy Spirit to convict that person of their sins and for that person to turn to Him. I pray someone will read this and wake up from the life they are living now and turn to Him. Its by His grace that we are all even here.

   Kevin | Oct 11, 2008 | Reply

4. I thought this was the “Go Detroit Tigers…..and Take the Lions with you” chat site. I think I am in the wrong thread.

   Chris | Oct 11, 2008 | Reply

5. I really love these type of debates…politics, religion, history, morality. I live for the chance to stretch, and exercise my brain; but I don’t want to be greedy. Jump on in here people! Lets here what you have to say. Come On…Don’t be shy! I love, love, love this shit:-)

   Polimom69 | Oct 11, 2008 | Reply

6. Sometimes I read things like that, and I think “We’re doomed!” Kevin, you are not voting for God, you are still voting for a human. When Jesus comes back and wants to be president, then vote for him. The problem with religion in politics is it’s total lack of logic.

   Abortion? : Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. Considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.

   Isaiah 13:18 “They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.”

   Sure, great book…

   I used to think religion taught tolerance and forgiveness, but I know now that it does the exact opposite. It breeds hatred, close mindedness, and irresponsibility.

   I will develop my idea of why people believe here… I do not mean to offend, but I will be harsh, and whomever is religious or has an anxious nature might not want to keep reading…

   Religions, almost any of them are rooted in our subconscious, driven by self deception. The deception that prevent many people from going nuts, knowing that after we die, there is nothingness. (Feel a knot in your stomach?) This thought creates a very deep anxiety that most people just can’t consider. This is where our brain has to fill the void, it needs an answer. Almost any will do, as long as eternal life is promised. You can’t argue with a religious extremist, because their brain will refuse the possibility that they are wrong. This is how cults work. Start one, make up a weird story, promise eternel life, and people will come, guaranteed! It has nothing to do with intelligence, only strenght and self deception. Now, there are many religions and cults in the world. Some people believe in the arrival of UFOs (Heaven’s Gate), Jesus/God, and another multitude of deities. All of those have stories as bizarre as the other. When I see people speaking in tongue, rolling on the floor
   shaking, handling deadly snakes, I see mental illness. And this is where the danger is in politics, as I have mentioned: Would you vote for a president that believes in salvation brought by aliens from another planet? You’ll say “Religion is nothing like that.” But it is. It’s just a 2000 Year old story people decided to believe to feel better. Why not read Homer and believe in the gods of Greek antiquity? Some stories are jusy more popular than others. We all know it, even believers, deep inside. Has a convicted criminal ever been acquited because he said the devil made him do it? No! Because the Jury, even though statistically 80% christian, just knows better.. This is where they don’t self-deceive, because they feel it’s not about them, forgetting the logical implications of their choice.

   Anyway, I have nothing against people who believe. If they need it, and it makes them feel better, great. I feel sorry about people who base their entire lives on what is in my opinion a fairy tale. I do not want however to see a religious extremist elected as president, because there is no way to tell what he’ll do in the name of god… This is why we have the US constitution telling us not to mix religion and politics.

   And Kevin, grab a beer and chill out. I don’t know you, but it seems to me that your beliefs bring you much stress, and hatred of other religions.. There has to be something that bothers you deeply inside for you to go off like that. A few more years of that and you’ll end up with an ulcer and a heart attack…

   I’ll conclude by saying that you don’t need to be religious to have good values and ethics, and a code of conduct. You can be a good person without believing in any god, the easter bunny or flying saucers..

   Life acquires great beauty when you know it doesn’t last forever.

   Geez, this whole thing is gonna piss-off a few people..!

   You all have a great week-end!

   Gil | Oct 11, 2008 | Reply

7. Wow Gil, remind me to never go on a whiskey drinking bender with you!

   The sad truth is that politics and religion can never be truly separated, because religion is seeded deeply from a young age in most cases; and traditionally (with some exceptions) politics comes after the religious convictions have “set in”; not being able to vote until 18 contributes to this. Even if the candidates don’t declare a religion, because they have to declare a party, then John or Jane Voter will rely on their experiences and convictions (some religious in nature) to make their selection - thereby involving their own religious beliefs in that decision.

   As far as the current election goes (outside of religious beliefs and convictions) aren’t we really just dealing with two covers to the same book? One the Left Cover and the other the Right Cover? Either way the content is similar. They both make promises that they can not, or will not, fulfill. As our “Democracy” continues to be spread conveniently around the world, we come closer and closer to socialism. We just socialized the losses of the banks and insurance companies. Thank goodness we stabilized the markets! Whew, that was close it could have been……wait, what was that? It didn’t work? Damn, now what? Can we stop payment on the $750,000,000,000.00 check? No, already cashed it? Double Damn!!

   On a side note, can you imagine what it was like to be either McCain or Obama to cast the first vote on that $750 Billion? Worried about how the other voted? Crazy Stress. I am sure it was an easy choice for them seeing 75% of the Senators voted for it.

   Just some ramblings from the sidelines.

   Chris | Oct 12, 2008 | Reply

8. Gil,
   You are the typical athiest who claims to understand the Bible and misquotes it, taking passages out of context. The section in Numbers that you were refering to was NOT an abortion ritual. It was a ritual that God had the Isrealites do with a suspected adulterous woman. They would come before the sacrificial alter to address the issue. The woman would drink the water and God would curse her womb and cause her to no longer be able to carry a child. She would be a curse among her people because she would not be able to raise heirs to continue her family line. It was not an abortion ritual. You mentioned only a small part of Isaiah as well. It is a small part of God passing judgment on an evil nation. Here is the whole section that relates to the one verse you picked.
   17 Behold, I am going to stir up the Medes against them,
   Who will not value silver or take pleasure in gold.
   18 And their bows will mow down the young men,
   They will not even have compassion on the fruit of the womb,
   Nor will their eye pity children.
   19 And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans’ pride,
   Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
   20 It will never be inhabited or lived in from generation to generation;
   Nor will the Arab pitch his tent there,
   Nor will shepherds make their flocks lie down there.
   Its a judgement on a evil nation and a warning to future generations. He has the right to judge any nation and destroy it for their sins. We are only alive and allowed to go about with our day to day lives by His grace.
   I understand that you feel the Bible is a fairy tale and you point to the passages you concider to be bizzare. Just because you cannot understand it does not make it a fairy tale. We do have a Creator. We did not crawl out of some primordial ooze and evolve our way to where we are now. It takes more faith to believe that fairy tale than it takes to trust that their is a Creator and He wrote a book called the Bible. It is pretty obvious to see when you look at it. Look at the symbiotic nature of our world. Plants give off oxygen and take in carbon dioxide. We give off carbon dioxide and take in oxygen. You cannot have one without the other. I am an engineer by day. I design complex machines on a daily basis. I can understand what it takes to get something to work the right way. Things don’t happen by chance. A pivot joint in a mechanism needs to be designed a certain way or else it will fail. It needs to be thought about and sized correctly. To do it by chance until that joint was right would take many many failures. Failures that would doom the whole machine that depends on that joint. Now relate that to just our human body. The way every joint on your body is designed perfectly for its function. Not only can your body perform a multiitude of functions but its joints and structure outlasts the things we engineers create. You are such an intriquite machine designed my a Creator. To think that our complex body system came about by chance with the functions it has is ludicrous. Step back from there and answer me where did the elements come from? Where did all the laws of physics come from? Did gravity create itself? There has to be something guiding and forming everything. Any design must have a designer.
   No knots in my stomach. I have assurance where I am going. I do not fear death. Nor am I stressed out. On the contrary I am quite relaxed, no matter how much stress and turmoil comes my way. I don’t drink nor do I take any drugs to quell any anxiety or stress. I am at peace. I wasn’t always this way. I did live my life and get stressed in the past. Before I put my trust in Him. It took Him sending many trials at me and bringing me to my knees to put my trust in Him. He changed me. I am not some kook either. I have also personally seen God’s hand in my life. I have seen him work real miracles in my life. I have seen Him heal my son of an illness that the doctors could not resolve. I have been truly blessed. I know you think I am strange and you must think that I need a crutch in my life but you are wrong. Don’t feel sorry for me. I am not the one on the wrong path. Oh and its not Satan that makes us sin. Sin is our own doing. In the beginning sin entered the world through the manipulation of Satan with Adam and Eve. We sin because its in our nature. We are the cause and are guilty. Everyone understands this. We all say “well nobody’s perfect”. We are imbued with the understanding of right and wrong. We also don’t have to be taught to sin. Right from birth we know how to do bad. We naturaly try to take things and get our way. Just look at any little child. Its I want, want, want and then they cry when they don’t get it. We have to learn to be good. We have to have parents teach us to be good.
   Finally, the US constitution does not tell us not to mix religion and politics. Our government was founded on religous beliefs of our forefathers. Our judicial system has its roots in the Old Testament Levitical Laws handed down by God to the Israelites. Here is the 1st amendment:
   Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

   Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

   It only states that congress shall not make a law to establish a national religion. They didn’t want a one denomination church like they left behind in Britain. Our congress to this day still holds opening prayers to God before conducting business.

   Kevin | Oct 12, 2008 | Reply

9. Hello Chris,

   I agree with you, the damage has been done economically. Unfortunately the religious debate will forever prevent Libertarians from getting elected. I think they have the right idea, in line with Objectivism, the kind of ideas promoted by Ayn Rand.

   Democrats: Socialism does not work. I have seen it in France. All it does it bring everyone to the lowest level, except a very small elite. For the middle and lower classes to make money, there has to be a percentage of people making a lot of it and spending it. So, those entrepreneur types need the freedom to start businesses without being taxed more than everyone else. And when I mean the entrepreneur types, I do mean anyone who wishes to improve their situation, people like you and me included. The socialist idea is called “redistribution of wealth,” I call it “stealing.” Money is always someone’s work, and the fruit of my labor belongs to me, nobody else. The only exeption to pure objectivism I do think is necessary is that we need to protect children who do not have parents to raise them. Because, there is potential there. When an adult messes up his/her life, they are solely responsible for it. I do not think people are created equal, and it is normal that some succeed and others don’t. Too many people spend their lives bitching about being cheated of a good life, but never try to better themselves. Education is available, libraries lend books for free, and there are so many ways to learn new skills for free these days. This is why I don’t believe in social programs. So, that’s the problem with Obama, he is basically a socialist, and he will spend a fortune in social programs. That money is coming from somewhere, that is, working people. Socialist systems are also abused widely. There is a whole class of people in France who live on government handouts. They don’t work, because they don’t have to, they don’t want to either. Companies over there are so encumbered by social laws that they move overseas or outsource as much as they can. Running a business over there is a nightmare. I know, I did it for four years. I was paying so much taxed, I simply decided to stop! I felt like I was working not for me, but for others, because I was!

   Now about Republicans… I don’t like them either. The religious mumbo jumbo, the fear monging, and our rights out the window are not a way to run a country. Not to mention trillions spent on war overseas. There might be reasons to preemtively wage war, but we sure haven’t been told what they are, though we can guess.. Iraqi freedom? Who came up with that lame excuse? Nobody gave a rat’s ass about Iraq before they invaded Kuwait, why would they do now? But nobody wants to pay $10 per gallon of gas, or worry about a nuclear (not “nucular!”) explosion in a US port. So, fine.. It’s too bad though the government has to sugarcoat the reasons for us killing all those people. If they were disclosed however, the political landscape might be different.. And after all, the war is “over there.” Nobody is shooting at me, I don’t have to worry about sniper fire going to Walmart.. But… Why are we loosing so many rights because of this? I feel like I’m in Germany in 1939. Go pick-up a history book, it’s scarry.. Hello, Winston Smith..? People should know what the government can do to them these days… It would never happen to you though, right? I could post a hundred links here about all kinds of abuses. Use Google… You’ll be amazed.

   So, Democrat or Republican? Neither. Sure, one of those two will win, but this country needs a Libertarian for president. And if it doesn’t happen this time, and it won’t, those ideas need to be promoted, for people to discover what that party means…

   Gil | Oct 12, 2008 | Reply

10. Kevin,

    So, religion makes you feel at peace, well, great then. I respect people who believe. I do think however that they traded their reason for that peace. Personally, I’ll stick with reason. I don’t know where I’m going after death, nowhere I’m sure, but if I do, it will be to the same place everyone else is going.

    “We do have a Creator. We did not crawl out of some primordial ooze and evolve our way to where we are now.”

    There is absolutely nothing on this earth or anywhere else that even remotely points at a creator. Not at an intelligent creator, as we understand intelligence as a human concept. What’s wrong with primordial ooze? It has been proven in labs that under the right conditions, life simply appears, in one way or another. We sure didn’t come from Adam and Eve. Two individuals can’t sprout a population, and that’s based on genetics. Brothers and sisters having babies, you know, you don’t get good results.. I’m not even talking about dinosaurs being older than the earth is, according to christianity. Chimps and us share almost the same genetics, and scientist have found the chimp chromosome that, combined with another resulted in humans. We still have it! It’s like a road map, there is no possible denial. To think that we were created as the bible states is a thousand times more ludicrous than evolution.

    To tell you the truth, I don’t have much interest in the bible, for the same reason that I don’t read fantasy books. Because we live in a universe with physical laws. I am 41 years old and not once have I seen anyone bend those laws. I have seen plenty of frauds and people deceiving themselves though. I don’t care to discuss bible semantics. I can’t discuss much with you because I reject your premise, the bible, and the existence of a god, as religion (any) defines it. Why don’t we discuss whether Peter Pan exists or not? Same thing to me.. The burden of proof is not on me, I don’t claim the existence of anything.

    Unlike you though I do keep an open mind. I do not entirely reject the existence of a creator, because I can’t prove there isn’t one. I guess that makes me an agnostic, or an open minded atheist if you will. But that’s normal, because anyone who has studied logic knows that you can’t prove a negative. You however will probably not entertain the possibility that god doesn’t exist.

    If we ever discover the nature of the universe, and find a “creator”, or “origin”, it most likely will be an amazingly foreign concept to us. All religions would be proven wrong at once. There are thousands of religions on earth, why would yours be the right one? By the way, they all think they are the right one, and can prove it…

    If I misinterpreted the constitution, my mistake.. Politicians do it all the time. I will say again however that including religion into government is imposing it to it’s citizens. Religion has historically been the source of a multitude of wars and caused more deaths and sufferings than any other man made catastrophies. Religions (at least the eastern ones) breed hatred, negates reason and logic and turn people into sheeps.

    What people do in their houses and churches is their own business (as long as they don’t break the law), but there is no place for religion outside of these. Still not convinced? I urge anybody to watch “Jesus Camp” the documentary (link below). Kids are being brainwashed today to be “soldiers in god’s army” and take over america. After watching it, one word comes to my mind: CHILD ABUSE!
    That’s the kind of stuff I worry about, not families going to church on sundays for a “regular” sermon.

    Jesus Camp
    Source: http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com

    Gil | Oct 12, 2008 | Reply

11. Gil,
    What study can you show that proves life can come from a mix of materials? No proof at all of a Creator? Hmmm. So you think the Bible is a book of fairy tales. You say you are reasonable and us religous people aren’t. You assume science has it all right and trust in what scientists come up with. Do you realize that the Bible that was written thousands of years ago had facts about the earth and our environment we live in that people back then had no knowledge of on their own and by their own discovery? Not that far back did people still think the world was flat yet the old testament spoke of a round earth suspended in space on nothing thousands of years ago. Only in the last 100 years have scientists discovered germs and the need for washing and disinfecting yet God commanded the Israelites in the old testament thousands of years ago to wash and make themselves clean. Here is an interesting list of scientific facts of the Bible. Maybe you should dig one up and actually read
    it.

    Scientific Facts in the Bible

    1. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Hebrews 11:3 tells us that the “things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”

    2. Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.

    3. At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space: “He…hangs the earth upon nothing” (Job 26:7).

    4. The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: “It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth” (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world.

    5. God told Job in 1500 B.C.: “Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?” (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statement—that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn’t discover this until 1864 when “British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing” (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia).

    6. Job 38:19 asks, “Where is the way where light dwells?” Modern man has only recently discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a “way,” traveling at 186,000 miles per second.

    7. Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: “When the morning stars sang together…”

    8. “Most cosmologists (scientists who study the structures and evolution of the universe) agree that the Genesis account of creation, in imagining an initial void, may be uncannily close to the truth” (Time, Dec. 1976).

    9. Solomon described a “cycle” of air currents two thousand years before scientists “discovered” them. “The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits” (Ecclesiastes 1:6).

    10. Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: “In the beginning [time] God created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter] . . . And the Spirit of God moved [motion] upon the face of the waters.” The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe.

    11. The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our body’s mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were “bled,” and many died because of the practice. If you lose your blood, you lose your life. Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared that blood is the source of life: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood.”

    12. All things were made by Him (see John 1:3), including dinosaurs. Why then did the dinosaur disappear? The answer may be in Job 40:15–24. In this passage, God speaks about a great creature called “behemoth.” Some commentators think this was a hippopotamus. However, the hippo’s tail isn’t like a large tree, but a small twig. Following are the characteristics of this huge animal: It was the largest of all the creatures God made; was plant-eating (herbivorous); had its strength in its hips and a tail like a large tree. It had very strong bones, lived among the trees, drank massive amounts of water, and was not disturbed by a raging river. He appears impervious to attack because his nose could pierce through snares, but Scripture says, “He that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.” In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.

    13. Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in hospitals. As many as 30 percent died after giving birth. Semmelweis noted that doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped to 2 percent. Look at the specific instructions God gave His people for when they encounter disease: “And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean” (Leviticus 15:13). Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of water, leaving
    invisible germs on their hands. However, the Bible says specifically to wash hands under “running water.”

    14. Luke 17:34–36 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.

    15. “During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to ‘bad air’ or ‘evil spirits.’ However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: ‘The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation’ (A History of Medicine).” Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God With all these truths revealed in Scripture,how could a thinking person deny that the Bible is supernatural in origin? There is no other book in any of the world’s religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth. In fact, they contain statements that are
    clearly unscientific. Hank Hanegraaff said, “Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based on established evidence.

    Kevin | Oct 12, 2008 | Reply

12. “Gil,
    What study can you show that proves life can come from a mix of materials? No proof at all of a Creator?”

    Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_generation#Spontaneous_generation

    “1. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Hebrews 11:3 tells us that the “things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”

    Have you heard of the atomists? Plato? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomism#Greek_atomism

    “2. Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.”

    That can be discovered by experience. The bible says it, so what? I am sure it was discovered much sooner, by men. And how does this prove the existence of god? Circumcision is child abuse anyway in my book.

    “3. At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space: “He…hangs the earth upon nothing” (Job 26:7).”

    “He…hangs the earth upon nothing” This does absolutely not mean that the earth floats in space.. Where did you get that from? What a jump.

    “4. The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round:”

    The Greeks were the first (that we know of) to theorize that the Earth was round. Scholars like Pythagoras in 500 BC based their belief on observations about the way the altitudes of stars varied at different places on Earth and how ships appeared on the horizon. Other people deduced it by observation. The church was actually burning people who said the earth was round.

    “5. God told Job in 1500 B.C.: “Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?” (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statement—that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light?”

    Again, that does absolutely does not mean that the bible speaks of radio messages!!!

    “6. Job 38:19 asks, “Where is the way where light dwells?” Modern man has only recently discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a “way,” traveling at 186,000 miles per second.”

    You’re crazy.. You simply can’t deduce that’s what it means. You make totally crazy assumptions with a total lack of logical deduction.

    “7. Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: “When the morning stars sang together…”"

    Not what it says or means, once again. I could read any book and deduce the same thing with your kind of reasoning.

    “9. Solomon described a “cycle” of air currents two thousand years before scientists “discovered” them. “The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits” (Ecclesiastes 1:6).”

    Sailors knew that thousands of year before it was put in the bible, hello!!!

    I won’t even bother answering your other “deductions.” You have been thoroughly brainwashed, or brainwashed yourself. Ignorance at it’s peak. I didn’t even know it was possible to believe such monstrosities, and make such deductions out of thin air. The bible has scientific facts in it, so what? It doesn’t mean an imaginary god came up with them, it means intelligent humans deduced it. The greeks had it all, and they never read the bible.

    Anyway, I won’t discuss anything further with you. You are just too igorant to hold an intelligent conversation. I am appaled that there are people in this country who hold fairy tale beliefs that date from and before the middle ages. Never go to Europe and discuss this with anyone, you’ll be laughted at so hard, you’ll cause hernias all over. There is no evidence anywhere in the bible, whatsoever! Supernatural in origin, are you kidding!?

    I can see how a whole population can go nuts. If most people hold crazy beliefs like that, the few remaining ones won’t dare laugh at them, and I understand them. People should have more guts though and make their views known. They have in Europe and sanity rules there. Am I the only one on this thread who dares speak up against this insanity?

    Gil | Oct 12, 2008 | Reply

13. Gil,
    You really need to chill out. You are getting a little riled up there. Are you having a hard time fighting fending your position to resort to name calling? Its a common trait amongst all athiests/ agnostics. Just for a little more clarification. The Greeks weren’t the first to say the earth was round. The Greeks weren’t even a large nation at that the time of Isaiah. Isaiah was a prophet of God at around 740 BC and wrote that, 200+ years before the Greeks. He wasn’t an astronomer or anything like that. He wrote what God told him to write. The Bible as we have now is made up of ancient writings pre-dating the Romans and the Greeks. When do you think Solomon wrote about the cycle of air currents? He lived during the 10th century BC. I would say thats thousands of years ago.
    Oh, and if you think this country is full of idiots and that sanity rules in Europe you are more than welcome to go back there. You won’t be missed. Oh, thats right, a country full of socialism that won’t let you run a business. You are just not happy anywhere are you?

    Kevin | Oct 12, 2008 | Reply

14. I’m pretty happy here actually right now. I’ll probably leave in a couple years, and if I won’t be missed by you, I will by all the people who know me. I don’t think people here are idiots, I just think many are self deceiving. You’re right, I get worked up sometimes with these discussions, but that’s where the fun is in arguing. I do think your beliefs are extreme and unreasonable though, even harmfull, more than most people I know to be religious. But hey, I’m entitled to my opinion, and so are you to yours. We’re not going to agree, that’s obvious. So, I will chill out, and thank you for the jousting.

    Gil | Oct 12, 2008 | Reply

15. Can’t debate someone that believes unruly children should be stoned (and adulterers), says we can have many wives and slaves, and that women on their period are unpure and should be kept away (ok, as far as moods, I’m okay with that one.) No shellfish. Can’t trim your beards. Oh, and if a man kills your cow, you must give him three goats. You want to follow the Bible to the letter? My friend, you are an absolutist (MY RELIGION IS BETTER THAN YOURS! MY GOD WILL SMITE THEE!) and - sorry - there is verrrry little difference between you and Islamic fundamentalists. Or any other whack-job nutcase winged-out group that believes they are God’s Chosen. Y’all ain’t budgin’. Y’all got all the answers. And the only difference between you and terrorists? You haven’t used violence to make your point. Except for the clinics your ilk has bombed. Then again, can’t debate you, because You And Yours Are God’s Chosen. There is no talk. Oh, and as far as the ’scientific’ stuff? Does your God allow you to smoke enough to truly buy that hook and sinker? PLEASE don’t damn me to Hell, because - gosh - I’d be awfully worried about how I look in Your Eyes.

    Billy | Oct 15, 2008 | Reply

16. I am just wondering about something Kevin…that’s the third time now you have referred to yourself as a “religious nut”, why is that?
    “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me”… was said by John. A MAN named John, some 3000 years ago. Why do the new testament, and the old testament directly conflict one another? Because It was written by a fallible, ‘’sinning’ men. If The bible was written directly by a Christian God’s hand, each chapter wouldn’t be named after different men. Mathew, Mark, Luke…It would just say “From God,Chapter One”. If I were awakened in the middle of the night by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent voice regaling me with tales of his latest miracle, chances are that once I sat down to recount the story, I may get a fact or two wrong. You see anytime anyone retells a story, it inevitably is retold through the perception and interpretation of the listener of the story. Also The bible wasn’t written in the English language. Speaking from personal experience, whenever you translate a story from one language to another, it once again is inevitably altered from its original telling. The Bible that you follow so literally has been retold, rewritten, re translated, literally thousands of times, by thousands of people. With that said what are the chances that the original word of God is exactly as God had intended?
    And of course why would an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being, simply put his word down himself? He apparently managed to carve the commandments in stone, created every being that roams the earth, and performs miracles on a whim. Why would he/she then use a bunch of messenger’s to deliver the most significant message he/she has to offer his children for all the ages of earth existence?
    How do you respond to the fact that Christianity, Muslim, and Judaism all originated with Abraham, and a book claiming to be the word of God? Why is it that 3 apparently different, and conflicting religions follow teachings of God’s word in the form of the Torah, the Koran, and the Bible, and yet the ideals, morals, and most of the stories are the same?
    If it were so black/white, cut and dry, then why is there not just one religion called Christianity?
    You state….
    “Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and even Jewish people all all going to Hell…Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims along with all the other false religions out there are following false gods and ultimately lies from Satan.”
    Well which, “Christian” faith is right? If the Catholics are right does that mean that…. Methodist’s, Baptist, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Mormons, Episcopalians, Mennonites, Church of Christ, Church of the Nazarene, Church of Hope, Church of the Cross, Church of the Latter Day Saints, Evangelical Church, Evangelical Church of Christ, First Congregational United Church Of Christ, Holy Trinity Anglican Church, Church of the Tabernacle, Pentecostal Church of Faith, Congregational Church Of Christ-Disciples of Christ, First Christian Church, National Conservative Christian Church, Greek Orthodox Church, The Peoples Church Of Deliverance, Unitarian Universalist Church, Mary Magdalene’s African Methodist Episcopal Missionary Baptist Church of Christ-(This actually exists!!) Whew!!!
    Does it mean these “Christians” are “doomed to hell” as well?

    The Bible is a book of parables, meant to be a guidelines for Christian followers to live by, in order to live a more productive, virtuous, moral life. In all likelihood The Jewish Koran, and The Muslim Koran, actually come from the same origin, but in the hands of man, through ages of translations from one regional language to the other, became known first as a different name, and eventually as a different language. Until finally in the fallible hands of mankind the different interpretations become known as conflicting religions, in spite of having the same origin.
    Most religions believe in a creator. Using the example of the human body is convincing that mankind had, or has a creator, or creator’s it does not prove definitively that this creator is the Christian God, and it certainly does not mean that everyone that disagrees is damned to burn in hell for eternity.
    I find the certainty of Atheism to be equally as arrogant, as the certitude of Christianity. I believe its really okay to say, “I DON’T KNOW!” and neither do you, neither does Gil, or the Pope, or Tom Cruise, or Buddha. No one can say with certainty that their religion is right, and it is unreasonably obtuse to believe that you can. A person can have faith, and be hopeful, but that is not the same as being certain. The type of certitude you speak of cannot exist without proof. Stating that something cannot be disproved does not mean it has been proven.
    Although you claim your not judging, your tone is in fact extremely judgmental, and self-righteous. Which means you don’t acknowledge, let alone repent for your sin..so, according to your theory you may very well find yourself beside the heathens that you have so self-righteously condemned. According to your belief Gandhi, a pure, and virtuous man that devoted his life to helping others, fighting against oppression, and worshiping the Hindu God’ will spend eternity burning in hell. And the likes of…Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacey can simply repent, and be truly sorry for the horrors they commited, and
    they will spend eternity in heaven. If this is in fact the case, I think the god you worship has a twisted sense of what is righteous, and just.

    polimom69 | Oct 15, 2008 | Reply

17. Kelly,
    I refered to what some people call those with my beliefs. I call myself a follower of Christ who believes in the literal word of the Bible.
    You need to get your facts straight about the Bible. The Bible is a collection of writings from various men throughout time. They wrote under the direction of the Holy Spirit. The Old Testament portion of the bible is taken from the Jewish Bible, the Pentateuch. Christians and Jews believe in the same God. They differ in regards to whom Jesus is. They did not believe Jesus was their Messiah, or Savior where we Christians do. The New Testament is from the Time Jesus came into the world and for a short time after His death on the cross and resurrection. The Old Testament teaches about God, His Laws, our sins and our own weakness and inability to permanently pay for our sins. It pointed to a future Messiah. The New Testament teaches about Jesus, His life while on this earth, what it takes to be saved, and how to follow Him and go to Heaven. I cannot explain why God chose to deliver His word to us using various authors all writing over the span of many years with yet a cohesive theme throughout. Yes He could have just made a book and had it appear, the Muslims actually claim an angel gave them theirs. He chose to do it the way He did I think to bring more Glory to Him. For us to appreciate even more His sovernty to have all these writings from many writers be able to come together as a cohesive book that stands the tests of time. In regards to words and meanings being changed through the various translations you are wrong. The earliest manuscripts of the Old and New Testaments still match up with the writing in the Bible you can go and buy at a bookstore today. The Dead Sea Scrolls that were found were dated back to around the 3rd century BC. They found the complete book of Isaiah and read it. It matched up perfectly with the current scripture in our modern Bible. There are currently over 5000 copies of original manuscripts of the Bible in existence and they all agree. These aren’t photo copies like we can do now. These are all hand written documents. There isn’t another book in the whole of human history with that many old versions in existence. Many more copies than the writings of Plato, Homer , etc. and people point to the writings of Plato as if they are all accurate yet they always want to discount the Bible. All for the love of their sin. All because admitting their is a God and that He demands you to repent of your sins and follow Him is too much for them to give in to.
    The Muslim religion was started by one man named Muhammed who claimed to have a book from an angel. This book was written after the Old and New testament writings were laid down. He took the Jewish Bible and re-wrote it to change the blessing to be on Abraham’s other son. To that he added additional writings from his own head. He also only considered Jesus to be a prophet of God who didn’t die on the cross. They teach that we have to work our way to God which will never get us there.
    The Bible is the only answer for our sins against God. That answer is Jesus.

    Kevin | Oct 16, 2008 | Reply

18. Funny how someone who wants to share their religious views with you never wants to hear or even contemplate yours. But then again, fundamentalists across every religion have An Answer For Everything. That’s why wars are fought, and millions die. Because
    MY GOD IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD!
    All others? Go to hell.
    By the way? The Jesus of the New Testament ain’t the one you throw out here. Tolerance? Understanding? If the answer is Jesus, you’re in the wrong Testament.
    I just realized I don’t want to waste another keystroke on this.
    There is no discussion with zealots.

    Billy | Oct 18, 2008 | Reply

19. Thanks for your response Billy. I too had decided that I had said everything I wanted to say on this topic. Isn’t it bizarre that the topic started as..”Who is Sarah Palin?” It certainly took a turn I had not anticipated. Of course that’s the very thing I love about these discussions. As you know however, if it had been a debate as I had intended we would have stayed on topic. The last thing I want though is to insist we adhere to a strict debate forum. This is far more fascinating. I do want to mention that it was Kevin’s type of strict adherence that drove me away from my Christian up bringing. 10-12 years ago as a young mother I seemed to be encountering many Kevin types within the church I was attending.I was very involved with the church. I attended a weekly woman’s prayer group, had my children involved in the youth group, and Alain and I belonged to a couples group. At that time I had my personal training business out on Longboat Key, and about 90% of my clientele was Jewish. As the years passed I became closer to my clients. After 7,8,9+ years together many of them became to be like family. Several of these clients/friends were beyond generous with myself, and my family. I just could not reconcile the fact that people that had survived the holocaust, and/or WWII, as well as an entire lifetime of pure kindness, and generosity were as Kevin states..”going to hell!”
    How could that make sense? How could the God of the new testament you speak of be so cruel as to condemn these wonderful individuals to hell, after they had survived hell on earth, for simply being born into the “wrong” faith? I couldn’t accept this damnation so I went looking for answers. I took every religion class the college had to offer. I read, and studied the diverse religions of the world, and I concluded that it was just absurdly arrogant to assume that any one religion was right to the extent of literally billions of people being condemned to an eternity of burning in hell! I simply cannot accept that a God like that exists. I choose to believe in a creator, and be comfortable with saying, “I don’t know” and living serenely with that decision. Even if being wrong means my soul is damned. I choose to live a life that defines decency, kindness, understanding and compassion in a way that is implied in all faiths. Respect for all of mankind, and all living things is something that every religion seems to have in common.

    Polimom69 | Oct 18, 2008 | Reply

20. Kelly,
    What you fail to understand is that the true “church” is my type. Anyone who denies the divinity of Christ and His death on the cross as payment for our sins is NOT a member of the “church” body. The physical church building or denomination is not the true church. The church is the people. The body of believers that follow Christ, no matter where they live, what nationality they are or what building they gather in. Its foreign to you because you refuse to submit to the Savior. You refuse to submit to God and put your trust in Him. Both you and Bill have a real misunderstanding of who God is. God is the same in the old and new testament. Where do you guys get the idea that He is just a tolerant being that will let you live life the way you wish to live? Point me to a verse where that is written. God requires that we submit to Him. The Jews were scattered many, many years ago amongst the many nations for their turning their backs to God and denying their Messiah. They faced persecution which God promised in the old testament would happen for their turning from Him. Yet even though they did this He still is drawing them back to Him and will take from amongst them a remnent to be with Him in Heaven when He returns. Many other nations were set against God in the past and He has uterly destroyed them. They don’t even exist any more. He isn’t discriminating against one nation. We all face His judgement. We can see His love and kindness in the fact that He has restored the Jewish nation. He has kept them from being wiped off the face of this earth and has called them back to their own land. He shows His great kindness and love with sending Jesus to save us. Here are some verses from the new testament that show God is still passing judgement and is not the passive God you paint Him to be.

    John 3:16-19

    16″For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

    17″For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

    18″He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of (H)the only begotten Son of God.

    19″This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

    Matthew 5:21-23
    (these are Jesus’ words)

    21″You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’
    22″But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

    Kevin | Oct 18, 2008 | Reply

21. So about this Sara Palin woman? Isn’t it interesting to consider that the mayor of Wasilla (pop 5700 to 9000 depending on who you ask), and then Govenor of Alsaka (pop 670,000) is qualified, or experienced enough, to be a “heartbeat away” from the presidency? There are 19 CITIES in the Country with a larger population than the state of Alaska!! I believe the former mayor of New York City (pop 8,200,000) has already been determined not to be qualified to be President or Vice President?

    Arguably, my proximity to Canada offers me similar foreign policy experience as Mrs. Palin. In fact, I have been personally keeping an eye on those wily Canadians for some time, just to make sure they don’t try anything funny, eh?! And, we have had an annual summit in the form of Canadian Week at the Boyne Resorts for decades now; as a former Dining Room Staff Member at the Boyne Resorts this furthers my credibility as a Foregin Diplomat. I have actually spoke to Canadians, where as Mrs. Palin and her Fear of the Russians prevents her from any position other than defensive and anxiously waiting.

    Though at this time, my political aspirations are met and I am happy at the County Level. I do see this shattering the “glass ceiling” of small town political experience playing out at a National Level. But are we as a country ready for this? Is this the dumbing down of what was once considered one of the most respected positions on earth (both President and Vice President — President of the Senate)? Isn’t this similar to saying that Ringo was the most talented Beatle? Sure the others can sing, write and play music; but that Ringo really connects with the average “Joe Six Pack” who we are trying to reach — Lets put him in charge of the band!

    Chris | Oct 19, 2008 | Reply

22. Having said that, Obama doesn’t thrill me either. Obviously he has his own issues with experience. Unfortunately I read Ron Paul’s The Revolution after he already dropped from the race. And even his message is convoluted in its delviery. Although, to Ron Paul’s credit, at least he has a plan and is not worried about alienating voters to do the right thing in his mind.

    Lost in all the fervor around the “two” candidates is the history to be made in this election. Either a Woman Vice President or an African American President? Of course either way you will get an old white guy as President or Vice President which is status quo. Look at the societal progress over the last 4 to 6 decades. Remember women were granted the right to vote in 1920! Not a century later and they are in contention for Presidency and Vice Presidency. And we don’t even have to get in to the Civil Rights Issue, 45 years after Dr. Martin Luther King Delivered the “I Have A Dream Speech” an African American is running for President. “The bank of Justice” is not Bankrupt!!

    So we are left to judge these candidates by the “content of their character.” But can the true character be seen through the blinding glow of the news media and scrutiny? Combined with the “dirty” politics employed by both sides to mislead voters into thinking that one or the other is actually a real dirt bag because of this or that?

    Where is the true character? How can judge that?

    Chris | Oct 19, 2008 | Reply

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